I used to read a bit of John Piper and think his sermons were decent too. I would say Piper is pretty mainstream, he takes the Bible pretty literally so some more liberal folks may take him with a pinch of salt but I think most Evangelical Christians would say he is ‘sound’.
And before I really get going I do respect his balls when it come to the Bible, he doesn’t mind making ugly conclusions if that is what his reading of the Bible is. I’ve described him to a friend previously as a Biblical fundamentalist who hasn’t quite tipped over the edge into a full-blown-mentalist. Although, that’s kind of worse as it’s easier to take him seriously. He also doesn’t mind putting his hands up and saying ‘I don’t know’ which is good of him. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_qCeBCWQzI)
I’ve recently revisited some of his Q&As on YouTube but I am a little astounded, not necessarily by the conclusions he gives (no divorce, no abortion etc.) but by his blind ignorance in his explanations of those answers.
See below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Z52mOrW8U
Q: Would Jesus spank a child? If so, where would you point someone, biblically, who could not imagine Jesus doing this?
A: “If Jesus had children I think he would have spanked the Children. And the place I would go to help a person see that he would is… Matthew 5 when he said ‘Not a jot, nor a tittle would pass away from the Law before all is accomplished’ in other words, all the law in the prophets stand until they are done, and the law says ‘spare the rod, spoil the child’ – which is a paraphrase.
…Jesus believed the Bible and he would have done it.
But that does not address the heart of the issues. The heart of the issue is why does this person feel this way? What word-view inclines a person to think that you should not spank a child? Ha ha ha, where does that come from?
Well it comes straight out of this culture I think. There was a sign that used to be on the side of the 35W bridge… that said this; ‘Never, never, never, never, never, never, never hurt a child’, that’s all it said. And spanking is equated with hurting Children.
It’s against the law in Sweden to spank a child… and in some states in America… Well I will go to jail over that issue.
[my daughter] is at the age where I don’t think in terms of spanking a 13 year old girl. But I did when she was little. And I could give a whole theology of spanking here but I will maybe boil it down to: Why, why does this person feel squeamish?
And my view is that it is a wrong view of God.
Deep down does this person believe that God brings pain into our lives? Because Hebrews 12 makes the direct connection between God disciples every Son that he loves and spanks everyone that he delights in – my paraphrase. And the point there is suffering, God brings suffering into our life and the writer to the Hebrews makes the connection between the parenting of God and his Children through suffering.
[taps the question card] This is a wrong view of God.”
Ok. Where to start…
Firstly, discipline and spanking are not the same. Let’s just put that bombshell out there. You can discipline a child without spanking them.
Secondly, saying that “Jesus believed the Bible and he would have done it” is a bit rich – he changed half of it! But seriously, which bit(s) of the Bible? He overturned a whole lot of it in his New Testament teachings and loads of bits are simply ignored. Or what about Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (verses are noted at bottom of post), he’d be stoning his children if they got themselves into drink? The pattern of Christ in the New Testament would suggest to me that he would not stone his children and probably not spank them either.
It has been said that it is impossible to ‘follow the bible’ because there are so manydifferent ways to understand contradictory scriptures, if you obey one, you may well be going against another. Which is why we have so many different interpretations of scripture and different incarnations of God played out in the numerous iterations of the church.
I did not annotate the whole video but here are a few more choice quotes:
“Children have little fat bottoms so that they can be whopped” – I hope this is a joke.
“Spanking is so clean, so quick, so relieving.” – read ‘convenient, easy, satisfying’.
“It is a measured deliverance of a non-damaging act of a mild pain that makes the child feel the seriousness of what he has done.” – Yes, the seriousness but not the responsibility nor the reason.
The main thing that Piper seems ignorant of is any actual study into parenting methods – his line “What word-view inclines a person to think that you should not spank a child? Ha ha ha! Where does that come from?” shows this ignorance. It is laughable to Piper that anyone would hold another opinion, and it must be some underlying world-view not, I dunno, education or experience that would stay your hand from stinging the backside of your offspring. Let’s not forget he is basing his parenting methods on 4,000 year old text-book here that was written in one of the most patriarchal societies that has existed. Many books written only 50 years ago have been discredited and improved upon in light of modern research.
But to Piper, I guess, what is the point of reading studies or looking at research, evidence and guidelines on parenting when he has his answers he needs: WWJD? And in this case Piper imagines Jesus would spank. Case closed, he would ‘go to jail’ over it he says. What a nut. Piper seems unaware of the irony and hypocrisy in using physical pain to teach a child not to cause physical pain.
Piper goes on to tell the story of how he disciplined (spanked) his son because he drew on the wall with a crayon. He has a smugness that seems to suggest that he believes this story proves his point and perfectly demonstrates the effectiveness of spanking. But the story illustrates the gulf that is left in the parenting process when spanking is used. It is a quick way to get to an apology, the fear of another whack will be enough for that, but it lacks any understanding on behalf of the child. All the child understands is to ‘do what daddy says’. The child is cheated out of learning about personal responsibility or controlling his urges or thinking about pretty much anything at all.
Parenting is not clean, quick, or relieving.
It’s a messy, long, hard slog and it is painful to be a parent.
When you have a faith based on vicarious redemption I guess these short-cuts start to seem like the norm.
I am not 100% against spanking but I feel the margins of doubt around the psychological detritus or the exclusion of beneficial processes is enough that I do not practice it myself and I think that there are better, more productive methods of parenting.
There were other surprises for me in John Pipers nutty nuggets of wisdom, the divorce talk was similarly blinkered for instance, but I am all nutted out for now.
But to finish I’ll leave you with this:
An interestingly contrasting view on the upbringing of our Children comes from the heathen, antichrist, hell-dwelling Richard Dawkins. This should be good, right?
His view is that adults teach their children to ‘do what they say’ because this is easiest for them as a parent (clean, quick, relieving?), they position themselves as the authority figure who must not be disobeyed or often even questioned. He says that Children are brought up to obey their parents authority and to take what they say as truth. Dawkins’ challenge (and it is challenging!) is that we should bring up our children to think critically, to question authority (even our own) to test claims and to believe things on evidence and reason.
Piper would say this crazy world-view shows we hate our children. What a Nut-Job.
Matthew 5:18
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Proverbs 13:24
Whoever spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him
Hebrews 12:5-11
5″My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18″If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Shones says:
Been following Rachel Held Evans blog and this post featured yesterday. It would appear John Piper is not the only crazy out there! http://rachelheldevans.com/michael-debi-pearl-abuse?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RachelHeldEvans+%28Rachel+Held+Evans+-+Blog%29
Oct 06, 2011, 9:12 am